Captain Ron talks with Jay Christopher King and Kelly Chase to discuss their docuseries Cosmosis: UFOs & A New Reality…….a series that delves into the multifaceted aspects of the UFO and Non-human Intelligence phenomena.
Episode Transcript
Captain Ron (00:56):
Welcome to Beyond Contact. I’m Captain Ron, and today we
have two friends returning to the show. They have each
(01:18):
individually been doing great work in the space and now
together they are two of the co founders of Ontocolypse Productions.
That’s Kelly Chase and j Christopher King, the two people
behind the new series called Cosmosis, UFOs and a new reality.
Hey guys, great to see you.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
Hey, Ron, thanks so much for having us.
Speaker 5 (01:36):
So good to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Of course, we’re looking forward to Contact in the Desert.
You guys are going to be there this year. Going
to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 6 (01:43):
Absolutely can’t wait. We’ve been talking about it. Actually my favorite.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Event of the year. Yep, it’s an absolute blast.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Awesome. So I watched the first three episodes of your
series and I really enjoyed it. It was very refreshing
to me because you guys actually took an entirely new,
honest approach to this phenomenon, kind of like I expected
you would, you know. I find it very refreshing that
it’s not just another one of these UFO docs that
rehashes versions of what we’ve already heard and what we
(02:09):
already know, but rather I found it to be a
very honest, hard look at the UFO phenomenon and the
different anomalies and the different ways we probably should be
looking at this topic. You can tell you guys put
a lot of work into this and a lot of
thought about how to craft that. What was that like?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
Oh gosh, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Ron.
Speaker 6 (02:29):
I really appreciate that, you know, it’s been It was
a really long journey, and I think, you know, Jay
and I kind of spent about eighteen months from start
to finish on this project really trying to figure out
what it was going to be, because we wanted to
create something that was accessible to, you know, people who
are newer to this topic. But we also didn’t want
to just be treading the same trails over and over
(02:51):
and over again, and we wanted to do what we
could to move the conversation forward and to do so
in a way that experiencers and other people in the
community have been studying this for a long time felt
sort of seen and represented, and it wasn’t just kind
of the same old news clippings that we’ve been rehashing
for the past several years.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Now we see that all the time, So that really
was an awesome part for me. You know. In this series,
you guys also explore this larger notion, one that I’ve
actually been expressing a lot on this very show lately,
and that’s that government disclosure is not this simple quick
thing that people think it ought to be, like here’s
the aliens and here’s the ships, and that’s it. If
(03:28):
we suddenly became apparent to one hundred percent of the
population that everyone understands that the UFO phenomenon is now
indeed real, then all of our trusted legacy institutions that
we’ve come to rely on to understand our world for
years and years and years, the government, media, academia, all
of these suddenly were completely wrong and you’re faced with
(03:50):
questioning everything they told us.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
Right, Yeah, Our second episode in Cosmosis is very much
along those lines, just kind of examining how do we
accept what’s true, how do we kind of like trust
legacy institutions, academia, you know, the government, it, startups, science,
anything along these lines, like how do we trust these people?
(04:12):
How do we find trust? How do we find out
our beliefs? Like how do we find out about our
own world? And you know, as Kelly mentions in the
second episode, you know, we don’t have to know how
to change our oil in our car because our mechanic does.
We don’t have to know how to fix a broken
arm because our doctor does, right, and we trust each other.
But then what happens when that trust starts to break down?
(04:34):
And what we see in this subject is that there’s
such a range of things that you can really zero
in on that are of utmost importance to us, not
just as individuals, but as a culture, as a society.
There are so many people that want to focus and
very understandable on the cover up, the giant cover up
(04:58):
that has existed in very world governments for seventy years,
eighty years, you know, possibly a lot longer than that,
in various societies. And at the same time, we have
to recognize that the national security state is not about
transparency and it never has been right. And so how
do we look at that? Is there a way to
(05:20):
look at this phenomenon more directly with fresh eyes? Can
we study this ourselves, like, how do we approach this
without looking at the Rubik’s cube, without looking at like
the crazy rat mas the four D chess game that
is the national security state? Is there a way around that?
(05:41):
Is there a way to really kind of embrace this
stuff on our own and really like look at each other,
compare notes with each other, and like make progress because
it seems to me and I know, you know, I
don’t want to speak for Kelly, but we have to
take an all roads approach to these issues.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Sure, you know, you guys also look at how government
secrecy might be far more complicated and far more intentional
than I think most people believe. It’s the way the
UFO secret was handled. It’s not just a matter of
deny every time someone says, hey, I saw a UFO,
Well deny that, But rather it’s an orchestrated perception management
(06:20):
for the public at large to not believe this. If
you stigmatize this subject and make people afraid to talk
openly about it, which made this cover up possible, it’s
not really a secret as much as it’s a conditioning
to just ignore it all together.
Speaker 6 (06:36):
Absolutely, I think that’s a great assessment of the situation.
And I think what makes that so complicated is that,
you know, now we’re left kind of asking questions about,
you know, what can we do outside of that, Like
how can we possibly make sense of things when we
know that so much of the information that we’ve gotten
about this topic has been so sullied.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
By that cover up?
Speaker 6 (06:57):
And also, you know, even as disclosure moves forward, like
Jay and I both very much support disclosure, I think
getting our government to be more transparent with us about
really anything, especially this topic, is extremely important.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Really exactly exactly, and we’re all about that.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
The problem becomes that at a certain point we let
the disclosure narrative kind of subsume the conversation about ufology
and what this thing actually is and most of the
information that we’re getting about it, and that the information
that people tend to take the most seriously is that
information that’s coming to us through the military intelligence apparatus,
which are the same people who’ve been lying to us
(07:34):
from the beginning. And if they’ve changed their minds and
now they suddenly want to start telling us more about it,
it’s probably not because they’re having a crisis of conscience,
and probably because it serves some other function or answers
some other risk that’s emerged. But the thing, the information
we’re getting from them is not transparency. It’s just information
that they would like.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Us to have exactly. It’s not. And in fact, you
guys point that out very specifically, Kelly, the way you
cite that Paul Bennott’s case, the famous case, which I
think is the one that Richard Dody talks about as well,
and he came forward about all of his involvement with that.
This shows how it isn’t simply just denial. Instead, it’s
an intentional manipulation of someone’s beliefs. They let him think
(08:14):
that he was seeing an ET and they acted like
they were working with him, but in fact they were
feeding him disinformation the entire time. This is really disturbing.
Speaker 5 (08:25):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean he was near an Air Force
base in Albuquerque, and you know Greg Bishop and his
great book Project Beta really goes into this case and
a lot of depth. And we have Greg in for
the show to talk about it, and Daniel Alzando and
Kelly and I both kind of amplify that a bit.
Paul Benowitz, he was a good citizen. He saw weird
(08:45):
stuff in the sky around the air Force base and
he chose to report it, and it got him into
giant amounts of trouble because all of a sudden there
were these disinformation agents like Richard Dody, who Greg believed
to be like other factions through the NSA, that were
actually actively disinforming him. They handed him in a computer
(09:07):
and he built an antenna, and they started feeding him
these wild messages that seemed to be from off world
intelligences and here trade themselves as such.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, all that people’s onion like you’re explaining here. To me,
it’s almost more scary to think that they could manipulate
you like that than facing a real alien.
Speaker 6 (09:30):
No, I think it is terrifying, and I think it’s
something that we need to take more seriously. We actually
went back and forth about whether or not we would
even include Richard Doty in that story, because he has
a major character in the Paul Benowitt story and we
as he is in a lot of stories about disinformation.
But we ended up deciding not to.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
Yeah, no, we didn’t. We didn’t mention him, and I think.
Speaker 6 (09:48):
Part of the reason we decided to do that was
I think sometimes it’s really easy for us to have boogeyman,
you know, and to take all of these kind of
nefarious activities and to assign them to one individual and say, oh,
he’s bad. And what we really wanted to emphasize was
not like, here’s Richard Doty and he did some bad things,
but rather, this is how the system works. The system
works to both produce and encourage doties.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
You made an excellent choice by doing that. And then
I come in here and spill it, Oh that was
Richard Doughty.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
I didn’t mean oh no, no, it’s a good part
of the cons He’s a huge part of the story.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
He absolutely it is a part.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Yeah, and we knew we were going to amplify it
in situations like this on podcasts and appearances later. You know,
there’s kind of like the core meat of the show,
Cosmosis itself that’s going to start conversations like this one
where we can really dig into the details and we
can really kind of like sift through that and amplify
things and start to like send people down those wonderful
(10:42):
UFO rabbit holes that Kelly has charted out so well.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
You made him to say that, You made I listen.
When we come back, we’re going to talk to Jay
and Kelly some more about how the government may be
hiding the truth and specifically about Errow, the organization that
was supposedly here to provide transparency for us on the top.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
Ha ha.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Anyway, you’re listening to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and
Coast to Coast am Paranormal podcast network. We are back
(11:25):
on Beyond Contact. We’re speaking with Jay, Christopher King, and
Kelly Chase about their new series, Cosmosis, UFOs and a
new reality. Kelly, I found it very interesting in the
piece when you pointed out that Arrow spent I think
it was one hundred thousand investigating the topic of UFOs.
But they spent over a million dollars to hire a
PR agency to control the messaging. This is very taling.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Yes, yeah, isn’t it though? Yeah, that one hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 6 (11:53):
It was for a joint study with NASA, which in
and of itself is a little bit funny because I
THINKNASA probably has a lot more.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
They’re like NASA all of a sudden being.
Speaker 6 (12:01):
Like, gosh, we should really look into the UFO thing.
It’s like a little bit funny objectively, but still it
seems like a good use of funds. But only one
hundred thousand dollars. That’s like a press release and some
snacks like I don’t know what you’re going to do
with that. But they spent one point nine million dollars
on contracting with an organization that does like perception management.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
For the DoD That’s what they do.
Speaker 6 (12:20):
It’s what it says on their website, and so it
feels like all you have to do is follow the
money and you know where people’s priorities are.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
It’s very very telling and very scary to me. You know,
Arrow has been clearly nothing more than a disinformation campaign
from my view. You guys interviewed a witness in your
series and he testified to them for four hours. I
think it was. And we all know others who have testified.
We’ve all interacted with these people, the government and military
guys who give their full testimony to Arrow. And then
(12:51):
Ero comes out with a statement saying there’s nothing at
all to indicate anything of an et nature that must
hurt these guys. And you know they would have come
out and said, it’s not definitive. We are not one
hundred percent sure what’s happening. That’s fine. I don’t know
what’s happening. I don’t think you guys know. I don’t
know anybody that knows what’s happening. But to flat out
(13:13):
say nothing was offensive to me.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
Not just that. But I went down It was one
of the few shoots that Kelly didn’t go on. I
think it was the only shoot that Kelly didn’t go
on actually for the whole series. I went down to
well an undisclosed location with Jordan Flowers or one of
our other EPs, and we shot with Mario Woods like
an incredible UFO witness, very pertinent to so many things,
(13:37):
including the recent quote unquote Jersey drones, this whole kind
of flap that’s been happening recently over military installations and
other places like pickets in the arsenal and ius and others.
And Mario was faced with this back in nineteen seventy seven.
He was guarding a nuclear launch facility in South Dakota
and he saw a giant fire ball that he describes
(13:59):
as the side of a Walmart building, which is quite
evocative and maybe tells you where he lives in the world,
not in the middle of New York City like some
of us. And he saw beings there and like they
were right over a launch facility, I mean right over
where these missiles come out of the doors. And he disappeared.
(14:19):
They couldn’t find him for hours, and his jeep showed
up in the middle of the mud and snow with
no tire tracks around it, miles from where they disappeared.
It’s an extraordinary case. You know, this is a guy
who’s very plugged in with people like Robert Hastings and
Robert Solace. They’re all very conversant. They talk to each
other you know, Robert Hastings of course, who wrote the
(14:41):
seminal text UFOs and Nukes, and Mario he showed me
while I was there, he showed me and Jordan the
correspondence between him and Arrow and it went back and forth,
and Arrow was blowing so much smoke to Mario about like,
you know, what it would do, and how they needed
his testimony and what they would do with and this,
that and the other thing. And we were able to
(15:02):
show one of those docs on the show, and that
was an exclusive for us that I really appreciate Mario
giving to us. But like you know, these are liars.
They’re not just liars to the public in general, and
they’re not just doing this for perception management. I mean
these are institutional level liars. That’s what they do there.
And this whole like facade where it’s like, oh, Kirkpatrick,
(15:25):
he’s you know, he moved on to Oak Ridge, and
so we’ve got another guy. And then you have these
ex military, these ex intelligence X intelligence, as if that’s
even a thing. They sit there and they say, oh,
well there’s a new guy. Let’s give them another year
and let’s see what happens. And it’s like how long
are we going to hit How long are we going
to hit fresh and repeat on this? How long are
we going to be lying to and allow these people
(15:46):
to say, like, let’s give him more time, let’s give
him more time. We know what they’re doing.
Speaker 3 (15:50):
And forever, because they did it with grunge, they did
it with you know, blue book, all of these sign
This has been going on since the dawn of the
modern UFO era, and it’s disgusting to me, and I
think it’s getting worse and worse today as social media
is clearly being used to manipulate perceptions by the public,
foreign adversaries purposely trying to infiltrate our social media and
(16:12):
persuade people. I think it’s done right here at home.
I’m sure that we feed this beast specifically on this topic,
and we can see how easily people can be manipulated
by being fed disinformation that has played out before all
of us in the last five years. So ultimately, I
think this is headed in the wrong direction. It’s going
to get a lot worse, not better, with the proliferation
(16:34):
of deep fakes and AI. What do you guys think?
Speaker 4 (16:37):
No, I completely agree.
Speaker 6 (16:38):
I think that in some ways we’ve always been our
own worst enemy in the UFO community, you know, because
we are so networked to each other, and because it’s
such a small community, and because everyone’s so like hungry
for more information that we’ve always been kind of ripe
for that in terms of intelligence, you know, infiltration. But
social media is absolutely ramped it up to a whole
other level. And I don’t think that there’s nearly enough
(17:00):
conversation going on in our communities.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
About how do we kind of have hygiene.
Speaker 6 (17:03):
In both like the personal and the community level where
we’re kind of stepping back and trying to keep ourselves
from getting to you know, as we’re bringing all of
this stuff in. You see, like anytime there’s new piece
of information or like a new person who claims to
be a whistleblower, or you know, a new something that’s released,
everyone descends like filters and we’re like.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
No, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
But in doing that by jumping on things so immediately,
by always feeling like we need to offer an opinion
or to come down on a side, or like decide
who’s right and wrong on these things, and like kind
of the topic of the day that comes out in
the community. I think that we’re kind of doing the
intelligence community’s job for them in terms of muddying the waters.
And I think at a community level it would really
behoove us to have more conversations about how to handle
(17:42):
this stuff better.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I can imagine people just loving it sitting back that
are doing this because we, like you said, do the
work for them and disseminate that and fight over it
and everything. You know, in fairness, this does happen not
just in our community, Like even I’ve heard how they
talk about this in the sports world, how they’re all
fighting to be the first to release that this guy’s
going to get signed by this company for this much,
and they’re all fighting to be that one because you’ve
(18:03):
got to follow this guy who’s going to have the
information first. And it’s great that this information is being
shared by a lot of people and not just coming
from the top. But on the other hand, it’s getting
really kind of messy now, and it’s just going to
get worse in my view. You know, another interesting point
that someone made on your doc that some of the
secrecy is unintentional, which is something that I have never
(18:23):
thought about. I thought that was novel. People naturally don’t
like talking about things that we don’t understand, and we
typically don’t like sharing those things with others. Now, I
personally think the exact opposite of that. There’s no point
in talking about what we know, anything that’s been discovered
or known to me. It’s like, well, it’s already out there.
Whatever I want to talk about the unknown.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
Well, I think that’s what sets people like you and
Kelly and I and many of your listeners apart from
the general kind of consensus reality out there. Hoth of
my listeners, yeah, all of them, all of them. Yeah, No,
I think that. You know, sometimes it’s it’s a conscious
bias towards wanting to kind of shave off the inconvenient details.
(19:04):
You see something really weird, you see what seems to
be a ghost, and like something else happens. You hear
a voice, or there’s something that seems to be connected
to it, but you can’t make a rational connection for
somebody else that makes any sense because all of this stuff,
you know, it’s all under the rubric of high strangeness. Right,
we need to talk about it because we need a
(19:26):
fuller picture. People will sit there and they’ll be like, ah,
I don’t know, Like I feel like these two things
are connected. This thing happened, and then two weeks later,
this other thing happened. I can’t draw a rational connection,
so how can I tell somebody else? It’ll just make
it sound more crazy. And so people self edit and
sometimes like your brain even you know, depending on the
(19:47):
level of cortisol in your brain and or cortisol pumping
through your body and other things like this, like people
well or yes, it could be that. But like, regardless
of whether somebody’s sober, tired or in some other state,
the brain has a magical ability to essentially take out
the trash when we find ourselves in a situation that’s
(20:09):
incredibly stressful. This happens in car accidents, This happens when
people fall off ladders. This happened trauma, people have heart attacks,
any kind of trauma. And for the brain to see
something that’s so against a conception of reality, it seems
to have a similar response in certain situations with high strangeness.
And so people will have this kind of patchy memory
(20:30):
of this stuff as well. And so then there’s the
aspect of like it’s half there and it’s half not there,
Like I shouldn’t mention that either, but you know, it’s
important to remember that, like for years people would see grays,
people would ask like what kind of clothes they were wearing,
and people would be embarrassed to say, like, well, it
didn’t look like they were wearing clothes, And so for
years in the literature that was something that was less
(20:52):
reported on because it just seems so wild that like
there would be some being and then that it wouldn’t
be wearing clothes.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
You know, Clarious, you have this encounter with something from
another world, whatever that world may be, and this is
your concern. We’re going to have to take a quick break there, guys.
When we come back, we’re going to talk more to
Jay and Kelly about some of the strange occurrences and
how they’re more prevalent than we realize, and also how
these things parallel mainstream religion. Oftentimes you’re listening to Beyond
(21:18):
Contact and the iHeartRadio on Coast to Coast am Paranormal
podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact. We’re speaking
(21:40):
with Jay King and Kelly Chase. We were talking about
how these strange occurrences happen to people, and this was
an interesting thing that I thought came through your series
for me, was that in general, we don’t think societally
that these strange occurrences happen very often. In fact, I
think the average person on the street probably thinks that
they happen into a very select few, many of whom
(22:02):
are crazy. But when you talk to each individual, you
find it incredible how often nearly everyone has some type
of strange occurrence in their life, not necessarily a full
blown UFO alien abduction case, but a strange, unexplainable experience. Nonetheless,
stories of ghosts, as you mentioned, Jay, are cryptids, and
all of these things go back thousands of years.
Speaker 6 (22:25):
Absolutely, I think that for us that was something that
we really wanted to get across. So I’m glad that
I’m glad that it did come across, because you know,
I’ve had such a strange experience with this myself. Jay
is somebody who’s a lifelong experiencer, but I’m someone who
only came to this in the last few years and
started to really take it seriously, and even going through
my own process, it’s wild to me that I saw
(22:46):
a UFO when I was thirteen years old, but then
I spent the rest of my life up until just
a few years ago when I started taking this seriously
thinking that UFOs weren’t real.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
How do you square those things?
Speaker 6 (22:56):
And as you begin to sort of unpack all of
these things I think people have, whether it’s synchronicities, it’s
some sort of an encounter with or communication from a
dead loved one, you know, all of these things in
the course of our day to day lives. The walls
of our reality tend to be very solid, and yet
there are these kind of breakthrough moments, but they happen
so briefly. They usually happen around trauma or a bunch
(23:18):
of other things going on in your life. And I
think it’s really easy to just sort of like skip
past that part and just be like, well, I don’t
think about that too much, and you just assume that
you’re wrong somehow and you carry on. But I think
that once people get more educated about the structure and
the content of these experiences, how they take place, what
it’s like, how it impacts people that they start to
recognize in their own life. They’re like, oh, something like
(23:40):
that did happen to me. I just didn’t have a
way to like categorize it or explain it.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
Agreed one hundred percent, you know, It’s interesting also how
this phenomenon seems to parallel religions far more closely than again,
I think most people want to accept. There’s a moment
in your piece where Jeffrey Kreipel makes an amazing comment
to me. I thought it was great where he says,
in the ancient world, when we hear someone say, oh,
(24:04):
they came down from the sky and they called it religion,
but when somebody says that exact same thing today they
call it a crazy person. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
Absolutely, And I mean Jeff Kreipel has made such an
amazing career and has really contributed to the field, contributed
not just to our field, not just to the paranormal,
not just to uthology, but to religious studies all together,
and even to just like the social sciences at large.
I mean, he’s really respected as such a figure these
days within the social sciences community. You know, he chairs
(24:36):
the department at RICE, He’s been the dean of humanities
down there in the past. You know, Jeff really takes
this stuff incredibly seriously and even thinks that this is
really the future of social sciences at large. You know,
whether it’s anthropology, whether you’re looking at religious study, theology,
you know psychology. There are so many aspects of the
(24:57):
soft sciences as they’re sometimes called, that really could be
well informed by the history of anomalous phenomena. And it’s
absolutely true. I’m so glad that we have Diana Pasalka
on cosmosis, so glad that we have Jeff Kreipel on cosmosis,
and Stephen Finley, doctor Stephen Finley, who contributes incredibly well
to cosmosis. People that really look at religious studies, because
(25:20):
if we’re looking at something that impacts culture at the
level of myth and that it’s passed around by anecdote
and it affects our belief system so much, that’s exactly
what religious studies scholars do. We’re not just like sitting
there and talking to a priest. We’re talking about the
people that study the Catholic Church, that study these religions
(25:41):
and how they operate. There’s a difference there, there’s a
nuance there that people need to really understand. We’re not
throwing these two things together. We’re using the advantages of
these experts that look at belief systems incredibly important when
you’re dealing with a phenomenon like this.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
I felt even before I got into this topic years ago.
My whole life. I had a hard time squaring how
people that believe in this kind of a thing, UFOs
and whatnot were crazy, But people that believe these things
that happen in religion and all of those things that
are take magic is accepted. You know. I was immediately
reminded when I heard that quote by Kreipel of something
(26:19):
that Whitley talks about in Communion. Actually, when he compared
the stories from thousands of years ago, how there’ll be
an account, and it was that the fairies came down
from the trees, and he described these beings with the
big eyes and these little guys. Then you turn the
page and it’s like a modern day abduction story about
these beings came down from the sky. It very well,
maybe the exact same experience that’s happening, but we’re seeing
(26:42):
it through a different lens. We live in the space
age a thousand years ago that was way beyond the
way of thinking.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (26:49):
I think it’s if we lose track of our history
that we end up losing a lot of the phenomenon.
When we deal with the unknown, we’re kind of left
grasping for whatever conceptual tools or ideas or memes are
most available to us, and so inevitably these encounters with
things that are so far beyond our understanding end up
being wrapped in sort of the cultural zeitgeist of the day,
(27:11):
and it introduces a subjectivity into the experience. I think
that can make it really challenging for us to tackle
because we’re comparing these things that are very similar but
that are different that change over time. As tough as
that is, I think that like coming to terms with like, Okay,
that’s the reality of what we’re dealing with here, So
how do we approach this? It’s about not demanding that
(27:32):
the data conforms to our expectations of the kind of
data that we would like to work with, but instead
looking at the data as it exists and trying to
be innovative about how we’re going to approach it in
a way that we can make progress.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
You know, you guys also illustrate how anyone who’s had
one of these experiences, or those like me who have
just trust the data from experiencers, can really have a
personal paradigm shift in their way of thinking. They often
can have a whole new worldview based on these experiences,
and often it goes well beyond just the UFO aspect
(28:04):
of this. People sometimes experience additional phenomenon like telepathic abilities, precognition, levitation,
other sigh related effects.
Speaker 5 (28:14):
It’s interesting, right, because there’s a bit of a chicken
in the egg situation here. Did the initial experience kind
of break open somebody’s head in such a way that
they became more perceptually aware of this range of these
kinds of edge states, these edges of perception, Yeah, as
a causal like that. And then there are other folks,
(28:35):
for example Gary Nolan, who’s the head of the pathology
department at Stanford University and it’s quite a prominent figure
in the field these days. He also puts forward that
there might be differences in the brains of people that
are having these experiences regardless of modality, like multi modality experiencers.
(28:56):
You know how some people their second toe is longer
than their first toe or earl or something like this.
And there’s such a study even from the intelligence community,
but also now among researchers about these family lines. You
know that we find these family lines of experiencers that
can go back generations, like we show on cosmosis the
(29:16):
case of Courtney Lafal him. We see one of his
sons on the show, we see his grandmother. They’re all experiencers,
and they’re all multi modality experiencers. Courtney and his grandmother
they saw a UFO together when Courtney was a child,
and then that opened up a conversation in the family
where she was able to tell him that she and
(29:36):
other family members had seen UFOs in the past. With
that and other experiences, it really not just like opened
up the conversation among the family in a way that
could engender a sense of honesty and openness about all
these things, making people closer together, more intimate, but it
also kind of opened up Courtney’s worldview. He felt allowed
(29:57):
to look at this stuff, and as he felt maybe
a loud to look at this stuff and was able
to kind of embrace it on that level. He found
this stuff, he found more things. He found situations of mediumship,
He found situations of precognition, culture, geist, activity, and so
much else.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
You know, we also can’t separate out consciousness from the
UFO phenomenon. In fact, aspects of the afterlife also seem
clearly related to the phenomenon some way.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
Right absolutely, And I think we’re only just coming to
terms with what that really means. You know, we definitely
have this sense that there’s this connection. I think experiencers
in particular have a real experiential understanding that this has
something to do with consciousness and with the afterlife, you know,
all of these things that we’re really not talking about
one phenomenon, but kind of a meta phenomenon that encompasses
(30:46):
all of these different, unknown and often ignored aspects of.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
Human experience and just what it means to be alive.
Speaker 6 (30:53):
You know, the science is finally starting to catch up
in terms of our understanding of consciousness and quantum mechanics
and the structure of the universe that are going to
not just allow us but force us to look at
our reality differently. And I think that in beginning to
understand that that more about the UFO phenomenon is going
to begin to make sense to us. And so like,
(31:14):
there could be a more exciting time, I think, to
be studying these things, because I think we’re about to
make progress in a place where we’ve been stymied for
a while.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
God I hope. So when we come back, we’re going
to talk to Jay and Kelly Moore about the deeper
complexities of the UFO phenomenon that go well beyond just
a spacecraft flying in from another solar system. You’re listening
to Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
AM Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact
(31:59):
talking to and Kelly here. As j points out, many
of the current modalities we have on this topic all
have their flaws. We may be encountering something so much
more beyond the scales of what we can even currently grasp.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
Right, Yeah, absolutely. There’s a wonderful philosopher named James Madden
that we were able to bring onto the show. He’s
done incredible work. He recently published a book called Unidentified
Flying hyper Object where he really kind of gets into
this idea and many other ideas. But one of these
ideas is that when we talk about UFOs, we often
(32:33):
focus on the unidentified part, and we often focus on
the flying part, but we don’t look at the object part.
And according to him, like that may be an issue
because getting into the kind of like the philosophy of this,
like what is an object? Are we making assumptions about
what an object is? And especially with something like that
can appear as a nuts and bolts craft versus like
(32:55):
orb phenomena or something even more vaporous than that. You know,
maybe we have been making some overboard assumptions about what
we really term as an object or what kinds of
classes of objects we’re looking at, And so with him,
he’s talking about things like a hyper object is a
situation where there’s an object that operates on such a
(33:17):
grand scale. And often this is something that we wouldn’t
think of as an object, like, for example, a pizza
restaurant is an example that’s using the show. You could
replace all the things in a pizza restaurant and it
would still be considered by the people in the neighborhood
as the same pizza restaurant. You know, the employees could
change the ovens, could change everything like that, but we
still think of it as the same pizza hut, whatever
(33:37):
you have there. If you go bigger than that, there’s
the corporation level, or like there’s the economy, and these
are things that are so big, These are concepts that
are so big we articulate them as a thing the economy,
but we can’t really grasp Even the best economists they
can’t understand at any given moment, what the heck the
(33:58):
economy is truly doing on every single layer at any
one particular time, and what he’s suggesting that essentially, it’s
possible that anomaloust phenomenon that UFOs et cetera, could be
operating on such a grand scale that it is functioning
akin to that, like the economy, a situation that we’re
trying to wrap our heads around with these edge states,
(34:21):
something that may be absolutely impossible for our human minds
to completely wrap our arms around.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
It’s an interesting way of thinking, it really is. One
other takeaway that I had was that we do not
have to wait for the government to spoon feed us
these answers. But the phenomenon is everywhere if you look,
and we should just be more open about sharing our
strange experiences with one another, not afraid to talk about them,
(34:49):
then perhaps would be able to get closer to the answers.
Hopefully this series will provoke a dialogue. Was that part
of your mission?
Speaker 6 (34:56):
Yes, from the very beginning, I think of all the
things that we wanted to accompsh that that I think
was first.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
And foremost in our minds.
Speaker 6 (35:04):
Jay and I really believe in this sort of punk rock,
d Ui d u I dy approach to let’s kelly,
let’s keep it eye of Brodian flip. No, listen, the
intelligence community, they’re not even necessarily doing something bad or nefarious.
Like we’ve set up these institutions to protect us in
(35:26):
certain ways. Their job isn’t to like reveal the secrets
of the universe to us. Their job is to keep
us safe and mitigate risk, figure out what those risks
are before we do, and never tell us about it
so we can all go about having our lives. Which
isn’t to say that they haven’t done bad things also,
but I mean, I think the real point is that,
like we’re asking for something from the intelligence apparatus that’s
(35:46):
like it’s fundamentally.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
Not set up to do.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
In fact, it’s set up to do the opposite of that.
It seems like the whole conversation has gotten caught in
the jaws of this disclosure narrative that’s being run, for
better or for worse by the intelligence community.
Speaker 4 (35:59):
You know, to us, it seems.
Speaker 6 (35:59):
Like you should just you can just go around like
you just literally don’t have to let that be the
center of the conversation. But what we’re talking about is
understanding a non human intelligence or potentially many of them
in our interaction.
Speaker 4 (36:13):
With those things.
Speaker 6 (36:14):
And the thing that we’re supposed to believe about this
within the disclosure narrative is that, like, the best data
that we can have is data that’s given us to
us by other people that they can either confirm nor
deny about the vehicles that these things ride around in.
And it’s like, but why wouldn’t we just go talk
to the people who’ve interacted with these things anything?
Speaker 3 (36:33):
If you talk about refrigerator repair, go talk to the
guy who repairs refrigerators. Why you’re waiting for some guy
who won’t tell you about refrigerators and says he doesn’t
know anything. Why do we wait for them? It’s a
great analogy, Kelly, It really is. I think some people
in this community, we do entertain what the experiences have
to say, and we do take them at their word,
and we are open to their things. But I think
(36:54):
in general, most of the people in the world, certainly
in our country, aren’t necessarily as in in this topic,
do you know. I think that’s part of it. You know.
I felt this piece was so great, and I thought
Whitley was just fantastic in it. It’s kind of come
full circle for him because this is gaining some strength
and some momentum and he should get his day.
Speaker 5 (37:14):
You know, Whitley is such a legend. I mean, for
so many different reasons. Communion of course, was such an
early and important seminal work in the field. It really
busted with him and Bud Hopkins work at the outset
between that and like Missing Time and Intruders, They really
just the doors open on this topic as far as
the abduction phenomenon, as far as like interaction and things
(37:37):
like that. You know, Whitley was such a trailblazer, and
he continues to be a trailblazer. I mean, his recent
book Them absolutely incredible in terms of looking at the
high strangeness effects and the kind of inconvenient details that
we’re really talking about on the show. Them was a huge,
huge inspiration to both Kelly and I in working on
(37:58):
the kind of like groundwork that we laid for this show.
Has a new book, The Fourth Mind, that really gets
into the grays, and I’m really looking forward to the
conversation around that later this year. It’s going to be
absolutely wonderful to hear from him. That way. But yeah,
I mean he deserves every accolade. He deserves to have
this resurgence, and it’s so absolutely wonderful to see, you.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
Know, Jay, I remember, I mean this is what got me.
People always ask, and it was Communion that first got
me interested in This was that specific book, and I
do remember even then, right when it came out whatever
it was eighty five, mid eighties, My spidy sense was
tingling when I read on the back, how you know
he’s a science fiction writer, and I thought, well, yeah,
you know, he could have just made this whole thing up.
(38:42):
What I love is here we are, forty years later.
This guy not only has he not retracted his story
or anything, he has stayed in this community. He has
stuck to everything, and he is still to me at
the forefront. He makes very poignant comments that are very
interesting and make me reflect on these possibilities. And I
(39:05):
think he’s as important now as he was when he
came out with Communion, and that’s to me. That kind
of solidifies him more. And you guys look more to
Contact in the Desert.
Speaker 6 (39:13):
Yes, it’s honestly my favorite event. We had so much
fun last year. It was absolutely a blast. I love
the location, the resort where it’s held, because it’s just
it’s like exactly big enough and exactly small enough that
you know you can get away. But also it’s so
easy to kind of get in the mix with all
the speakers and the attendees, and I think like it’s
(39:35):
just the most fun.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
I really love it.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
Jay was telling me before before you came on, Kelly,
that you’re going to do a juggling act for us
this year. Is that true?
Speaker 6 (39:43):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (39:43):
Yeah good. I feel like for a lot of the speakers,
especially when they do hosting duties or other things like that,
I mean, and for yourself, Ron, I mean Ron Captain
Ron is doing a juggling act that whole long weekend basically,
you know, and the des.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
I have seen that weekend for me. Thanks a lot, guys.
I really appreciate you guys coming on. It was a
lot of fun talking about this. I could do it
for hours. I really recommend everyone out there watch Cosmosis,
UFOs and a New Reality and it really gives a
new honest approach to the way we perhaps should be
thinking about UFOs and the phenomenon and not just face
(40:21):
value like we’ve been over the years. It’s available on
Apple TV and on Prime. You can find more about
Jay and Kelly at on tocolips dot com, O N
T O C A L Y P s E dot com.
